Hi,
I am looking for a distance learning trading course. It should be practical (showing you how to build trading models, etc.). Any suggestions?
Thanks
Anira
Futex. by far the best one, but it is quite expensive. you can also apply for their trader trainee role but it is quite difficult to get it as they want people who really want to trade - ppl that are not after skyscrapers, safe salary etc etc. just your 6 screens and your massive passion for markets, 8 hours a day.
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If you want to trade at IB S&T, stay away from leveraged retail prop shops aka arcades. Futex is one of them. Do yourself a favour and don't waste your time and money. If you think that your (educational) background is not sufficient to break into IB S&T put your effort in obtaining a postgraduate degree or a professional qualification like the CFA. Having a retail prop scam name on your CV will definitely hurt your chances.
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Hi, I said prop houses (they are not scams at all - Futex has been here for 14 years, has produced some of the best traders in THE WORLD!!! - check the rankings) will not help you with getting a job in IB.
If you will be good enough there is no freaking reason why you would like to join an IB... IB is for highly educated people that in a vast majority do not know how to trade and make money out of their client's money. If you are brilliant with the markets you will make multiples of what you would be making in IB. Example: in IB if you are good you share your profits 90% to the bank, 10% your Bonus. in futex it can go up to 90% for you 10% for the prop house (you are entirely funded by the prop house).
Prop houses are for people who want to TRADE. People that dont want to have all the skyscraper offices, no safe salary, no pension. Only your skills and what you can take out of the markets. There are no stupid corporate meetings, no boss, no suit, you wont get sacked cos you didnt put enough sugar to your boss' coffee.
Of course its ultra difficult. Very few make it. But again if you are any good you will be better off going to a prop house. If you suck go for IB.
PS. remember that only scared Oxford sissy girls that do not know anything about the markets except what they learn from their careers advisors will tell you that prop houses suck. I know many people working in prop houses having weekly targets in multiples of what good IB traders make. Check Braveheart (one of the best traders around, wort around 20 mil nowadays) - he started in CTA. Check out Bradley Young - yes he started as a grad at Futex making around 250k a month now, only working several hours A WEEK. Check out TOP 30 under 30 list. More than half of them are from prop houses. IF that doesnt tell you something then thats a clear sign you are an IB material (which is not bad but no great either).
PS2. There are many more established prop houses (MAKO, MetTraders, Schneider, Marex ...). There are quite a few scams but if you are careful and really really want to trade and believe you can make it make your research and go for it.
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If you will be good enough there is no freaking reason why you would like to join an IB... IB is for highly educated people that in a vast majority do not know how to trade and make money out of their client's money. If you are brilliant with the markets you will make multiples of what you would be making in IB. Example: in IB if you are good you share your profits 90% to the bank, 10% your Bonus. in futex it can go up to 90% for you 10% for the prop house (you are entirely funded by the prop house).
Prop houses are for people who want to TRADE. People that dont want to have all the skyscraper offices, no safe salary, no pension. Only your skills and what you can take out of the markets. There are no stupid corporate meetings, no boss, no suit, you wont get sacked cos you didnt put enough sugar to your boss' coffee.
Of course its ultra difficult. Very few make it. But again if you are any good you will be better off going to a prop house. If you suck go for IB.
PS. remember that only scared Oxford sissy girls that do not know anything about the markets except what they learn from their careers advisors will tell you that prop houses suck. I know many people working in prop houses having weekly targets in multiples of what good IB traders make. Check Braveheart (one of the best traders around, wort around 20 mil nowadays) - he started in CTA. Check out Bradley Young - yes he started as a grad at Futex making around 250k a month now, only working several hours A WEEK. Check out TOP 30 under 30 list. More than half of them are from prop houses. IF that doesnt tell you something then thats a clear sign you are an IB material (which is not bad but no great either).
PS2. There are many more established prop houses (MAKO, MetTraders, Schneider, Marex ...). There are quite a few scams but if you are careful and really really want to trade and believe you can make it make your research and go for it.
Well there's a huge difference between a leveraged retail prop shop and a professional prop firm. Most (if not all) retail prop shops are daytrading firms without any sustainable strategy besides "scalping" and maybe swing trading. Maybe, they let you "arb" cash bonds against futures or similar s***.
Think of it in business terms: How incentivized is a company to make you a profitable trader if they let you keep 90%+ of your PnL? Not much, because they take your money in form of commissions. They encourage you to massively overtrade (one of the reasons for daytrading) so that they get lots of commissions.
On the other hand there are prop firms like Jane Street, SIG, DRW, Getco, Optiver, Tibra, just to name a few, who pay you a salary and invest their own money to train you. How incentivized are these firms to make you a profitable trader? A lot more because they pay you a salary and invest money into your education, which can last up to 18 months (Jane Street) before you get an own book. Perhaps the most important incentive to make you a profitable trader is that you will trade the PARTNERS' MONEY! These firms put money into financial research, employ strategies like statistical arbitrage, volatility arbitrage, (high frequency) market making in various forms in various markets and trading different products. These prop firms are respected in the financial community, because they have an edge in the market.
You see, it is not a discussion about prop firms vs. IB S&T. It is about shitty retail prop scams that often require you to put up your own money and where you learn almost nothing about the mechanics of global financial markets.
It is nothing wrong about joining a prop firm, but please join a respectable firm, where you can learn something and where you get proper training.
PS. I'd rather keep 10% from the PnL of a 100mm book (IB) than 90% from the PnL of a 500k book (retail scam).
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Think of it in business terms: How incentivized is a company to make you a profitable trader if they let you keep 90%+ of your PnL? Not much, because they take your money in form of commissions. They encourage you to massively overtrade (one of the reasons for daytrading) so that they get lots of commissions.
On the other hand there are prop firms like Jane Street, SIG, DRW, Getco, Optiver, Tibra, just to name a few, who pay you a salary and invest their own money to train you. How incentivized are these firms to make you a profitable trader? A lot more because they pay you a salary and invest money into your education, which can last up to 18 months (Jane Street) before you get an own book. Perhaps the most important incentive to make you a profitable trader is that you will trade the PARTNERS' MONEY! These firms put money into financial research, employ strategies like statistical arbitrage, volatility arbitrage, (high frequency) market making in various forms in various markets and trading different products. These prop firms are respected in the financial community, because they have an edge in the market.
You see, it is not a discussion about prop firms vs. IB S&T. It is about shitty retail prop scams that often require you to put up your own money and where you learn almost nothing about the mechanics of global financial markets.
It is nothing wrong about joining a prop firm, but please join a respectable firm, where you can learn something and where you get proper training.
PS. I'd rather keep 10% from the PnL of a 100mm book (IB) than 90% from the PnL of a 500k book (retail scam).
Well mate I know quite a bit about the industry but still thanks for letting all the others know. Obviously joining a firm like Tibra or Optiver is what most of us would like and I believe its the best way for someone interested in trading. But if you cant there are some prop firms worth looking at.
Lets take Futex as an example. You get 3 months training, both practical and educational. They do give you a very very limited salary but still enough to cover rent etc. They do fund you 100% - i.e. you trade with THEIR MONEY. If you get accepted into their grad programme you DO NOT PUT A PENNY in your account. Your investment is in the form of time and some money for food etc. Obviously they do want you to succeed otherwise they would be losing around 15k per student. The only difference between most companies and prop houses is that to succeed in a prop house you have to put 2x, 3x, 4x more work into it. You cannot expect the house to train you, give you some magic strategy which will allow you to make millions. You have to get there yourself.
On another note - companies that have been around (like Futex) have a very good rate of "producing" successful traders. Some of them - the ones that just get it - become ultra profitable. This comes as a mix of what the firm thought you and your knowledge/ability to trade
As for your comment on shi* scalping and swing trading - well mate I personally know people making millions doing just that. One of my friends working in one of Londons "retail scam" for 7 months now has a target of £1.5k a day. Sometimes he leaves office 30 minutes after coming to work cos he hit his target. I repeat after 7 months...
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Lets take Futex as an example. You get 3 months training, both practical and educational. They do give you a very very limited salary but still enough to cover rent etc. They do fund you 100% - i.e. you trade with THEIR MONEY. If you get accepted into their grad programme you DO NOT PUT A PENNY in your account. Your investment is in the form of time and some money for food etc. Obviously they do want you to succeed otherwise they would be losing around 15k per student. The only difference between most companies and prop houses is that to succeed in a prop house you have to put 2x, 3x, 4x more work into it. You cannot expect the house to train you, give you some magic strategy which will allow you to make millions. You have to get there yourself.
On another note - companies that have been around (like Futex) have a very good rate of "producing" successful traders. Some of them - the ones that just get it - become ultra profitable. This comes as a mix of what the firm thought you and your knowledge/ability to trade
As for your comment on shi* scalping and swing trading - well mate I personally know people making millions doing just that. One of my friends working in one of Londons "retail scam" for 7 months now has a target of £1.5k a day. Sometimes he leaves office 30 minutes after coming to work cos he hit his target. I repeat after 7 months...
Well thats a good question mate! I asked my friend and he simply said that thats the policy in most prop houses. It has to do with some psychological aspect of trading - you get overexcided and overtrade or something in these lines... Bradley Young (top 30 trader in the world working for Futex) used to leave almost every day after a couple of hours (when his targets were low).
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I partially agree with both pchaser and AlRa....
It all depends on your objective, if you are looking to join an IB in S&T and looking at prop trading as work experience to help bolster your application - then you would be going down the wrong path. Prop trading at these arcades tends to have a bad rep, plus, in an IB you'll almost certainly be market making - quite different from prop trading. IBs don't tend to hire prop traders for market makers... However, if your ambition is just to be a trader, then prop trading at a legitimate firm might be the right course of action. Personally, I'd avoid the prop trading and just do as much study as possible, volunteer at banks, and go for those grad programmes.
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It all depends on your objective, if you are looking to join an IB in S&T and looking at prop trading as work experience to help bolster your application - then you would be going down the wrong path. Prop trading at these arcades tends to have a bad rep, plus, in an IB you'll almost certainly be market making - quite different from prop trading. IBs don't tend to hire prop traders for market makers... However, if your ambition is just to be a trader, then prop trading at a legitimate firm might be the right course of action. Personally, I'd avoid the prop trading and just do as much study as possible, volunteer at banks, and go for those grad programmes.
Are you guys sure about Futex ? Do they really fund their traders or is it some sort of gimmick to make them trade high vols and eat up their commissions ? Their website and profile looks a bit on the dodgy side .
Are there any places that actually hire people to trade ( not arb or MM ) HOUSE money for a cut ?
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Are there any places that actually hire people to trade ( not arb or MM ) HOUSE money for a cut ?
I am a FI derivatives trader at Futex. You are entirely backed by company money, in fact if you are on their grad scheme (which I was) you are paid while you train. There are people on my desk who make multiples of 5 figures a day, the company has been running for almost 15 years so quite how it could be a scam is beyond me. Good luck finding a job all of you.
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Also, the atmosphere is nothing like a trading floor at an IB, mainly because we don't have lots of phone monkeys squealing at the traders and each other; we concentrate on making money. Of course you get excitement when markets are moving (this morning was a good example), but comparing the two is pointless; if you want to make a lot of money off the back of your own decisions, become a prop trader. If you want to earn decent money with a nice business card being told what to do all day, join an IB. Simple.
John
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John
IDID wrote:
So if you make losses Futex will stump it or do you have to share the losses ?You share the losses while your trading account is positive, naturally, otherwise people would just take mindless punts all the time. If you were to start off losing and never stop however, you won't share the losses. You never owe them a dime, under any circumstances.
Proprietary trading is the best job in the world. For those of you who are lucky enough to secure backing, be it from a bank or an independent firm, congratulations and get in touch.
John Kinnell wrote:
IDID wrote:
So if you make losses Futex will stump it or do you have to share the losses ?You share the losses while your trading account is positive, naturally, otherwise people would just take mindless punts all the time. If you were to start off losing and never stop however, you won't share the losses. You never owe them a dime, under any circumstances.
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People take mindless punts all the time .
" You share the losses while your trading account is positive " - sorry this doesn't make sense to me if the account is +ive then net net you are winning not losing. no losses nothing to share.
Q - what happens if the account goes -ve ?
I think the best you can hope here is that you get the sack . I can't see any way that futex or whatever they are called will stump up till you get profitable again.
you may not owe them money but that is a red herring , bogus and no consolation since you would have lost your ' job ' and were never truly paid for it anyway so who cares.
no I smell a rat . This is still an arcade job to me.
And FYI , bank traders are 2nd rate compared to HFs and the PTJs of the world old fashioned US CFT directionals.
* waits for the ineveitable shreeks of protest from the IB fans who don't I have some independent rating charts *
so dumb anyway why would anyone think banks are good traders , most of their methods get the banks bankrupt anyway.
That's not their business they do M+A , Arb , stat Arb , Algorythyms etc. nothing to do with trading per se.
IDID wrote:
People take mindless punts all the time .
" You share the losses while your trading account is positive " - sorry this doesn't make sense to me if the account is +ive then net net you are winning not losing. no losses nothing to share.
How does that not make sense? If your account is at 200k, and you lose 100k, you share that loss. If, however, your account is at 0, and you lose 25k and then leave the firm, you don't owe them a cent. I really don't need to spend my time justifying my firm to the likes of you though, do I?
Exactly,
If MY account is 200k, whatever I lose are my losses entirely, any other comment is just dodgy bucket shop hype.
And If my account = 0 after I lost 25k, then why should I owe anyone anything , all the money I lost is mine !
Unless I borrowed money to fund my trades.
Bottom line is bucket shops will never let you play with their money without added personal liability.
4 posts , mmm sure you're not doing some damage limitation for your bosses ?
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If MY account is 200k, whatever I lose are my losses entirely, any other comment is just dodgy bucket shop hype.
And If my account = 0 after I lost 25k, then why should I owe anyone anything , all the money I lost is mine !
Unless I borrowed money to fund my trades.
Bottom line is bucket shops will never let you play with their money without added personal liability.
4 posts , mmm sure you're not doing some damage limitation for your bosses ?